Saints, Part 2

Hi, from a Lutheran perspective, I wanted to point out a few thoughts. 

You said to read the book of Hebrews as a refresher on all things Saints. But what about Hebrews as the book which establishes Christ as our High Priest? The High Priest made intercession for the people of Israel atoning for their sins and standing in the most Holy Place, where the very presence of God was. Hebrews 7:25 "Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." I would argue that the book of Hebrews is more about Jesus being our high priest and intercessor rather than the book being about saints.

I would counter your citation of 1 Tim. 2:1-4 by going to 1 Tim 2:5 "...For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." I would argue that 1 Timothy 2:1-5 supports a Lutheran view rather than an Orthodox view of prayer to the saints.

Concerning the healing of the paralytic, it is unclear whether in Mark 2:5 when it said "And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic..." whether the "their" refers to the faith of only the paralytic's friends or the paralytic and his friends.

Also, does not John 16:23-26 advocate for direct prayer to the Father in the name of Jesus?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the Orthodox view of the saints is that you're basically "crowdsourcing" prayer to the cloud of witnesses. I don't mean that in a mean way, but as the best way to describe my understanding of what you're saying.

I think the Lutheran rebuttal to that is, we already have the Holy Spirit interceding for us (Rom 8:26-27), as well as Christ as our High Priest praying for us before the Father, so why go to the saints who are secondary to God Himself? We would also make a distinction between asking our living Christian friends to pray for us and asking our deceased Christian friends to pray for us. I hope this helps contribute to the conversation!

-Jacob 

Dear Jacob,

First, let me thank you for your prompt well thought out response. As this is still a new venture for me, I wasn't quite sure how it was going to go and I'm happy this is the direction it went. Here we go!

Concerning Hebrews, you are absolutely correct. I went back and looked it over again and I really should've said Hebrews 12, not the whole of the book. Thank you for pointing that out! Hebrews is absolutely about Christ being the high priest, but we find some good things in there about the saints as well. A thought has also recently come to mind: If Christ is our High Priest and chief intercessor, could not the saints be priests--that is not a fully formed thought, and I'll explain why shortly. Either way, I'd like to do some research into the heirarchy of priests and high priests in ancient times. First I have to come up with a good translation of Flavius Josephus's writings, as I believe his histories may be able to shed some additional light on that subject. More on that on another date. Or perhaps not. If it doesn't come to fruition, I'll consider it a dead end and an ill-placed argument.

I'd have to agree with Josef on the point about 1 Timothy 2:1-5. I think when viewed as a whole they support the Orthodox view. For while Christ is the "one God and one Mediator between God and men," that fact does not mean that we should not pray for others, nor should we not ask them to pray for us. I see that particular verse as a statement of faith. It seems to me that Paul is saying, "Prayers and intercessions should be made for all men, including those in authority so that we can all lead a quiet and godly life. This is pleasing to God, and here's why. Because he wants everyone to be saved and know that Christ is truly God and truly man, our one link to the father, who gave himself for our sins. That's why I was appointed to teach you." In my mind that works a lot better than I am able to articulate it in text, but I'm hoping you understand what I'm saying.

Concerning the healing of the paralytic, at this point we're quibbling over word choice. Who knows if "their" is inclusive or not. One would assume that "their" in this context at least refers to a group of people, since if it only referred to the paralytic, the pronoun "he" would be used. And if it refers to a group, then it is still the collective prayers of the people, regardless of whether or not the paralytic is included in this statement.

Concerning John 16:23, again, you are absolutely correct. We should ask all things in His name. Soon I will share a letter that I wrote regarding the word "pray" and I hope that will clear a few things up there.

Finally, I don't think I would call it crowd-sourcing. Just as asking a congregation to pray for you is not crowd-sourcing. We're not saying that God doesn't hear each individual prayer or that he only pays attention to a group of people. But, "where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them" Matthew 18:20. I would argue that this includes the saints. And yes, I am fully aware of the controversy surrounding that passage, but I think the statement rings true even outside of judgement. In either case, this argument still doesn't hold any water if I don't explain why we see no distinction between the living and the dead in matters of prayer. That will come soon.

You may have noticed that I'm pushing a lot of things back to a later date. This is because I didn't think when I started this blog and picked the worst possible week to do so. Now that I am in the thick of Holy Week, I have very little time for anything. Rest assured, I will have more time to be thorough after Pascha.

Best,
Jacque

The Saints, Part 1

Dear Lutheran,

I think one of the main differences between Orthodoxy and Lutheranism is the way of thinking. I've said this before, the Orthodox tend to think in more circular, philosophical patterns, while other forms of Christianity are more linear and analytical, for lack of a better word. This can be tied in to the differences between Eastern and Western thought, however I do not want to exclude the Western Rite Orthodox. The whole of the Orthodox church gravitates towards this way of thinking. This, I think, directly affects the sola scriptura argument. Try and follow my way of thinking here, because there is a very real chance I'll backtrack on myself as I am wont to do. The difference comes with interpretations. Lutherans and many other western religions say, "The Bible says this, therefore it is true." End of sentence. The Orthodox say, "The Bible says this, therefore it is true. The bible also says that, therefore it is true. If we combine both this and that, we come up with another true thing."

*disclaimer* This is a theory of my own, backed by a little bit of The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan KALLISTOS Ware. He provided me with the difference in thought between the East and West, I supplied the rest.

An excellent example of this is actually the intercession of the saints. You say, "Show me in the Bible where someone prays to the saints." I will now provide my counter argument using the formula above.

Paul, numerous times in the bible, asks for others to pray for him. Because you want specific examples, we'll go with Hebrews 13:18-19. "Pray for us; for we are confident that we have a good conscience, in all things desiring to live honorably. But I especially urge you to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner." Here Paul asks for prayer that he may lead an exemplary life. Here we find that it is acceptable to ask for the prayers of others in times of need. Both the Lutherans and the Orthodox agree on this point. (The Bible says this, therefore it is true.) Now we have this, also from Hebrews: "And all these [referencing the prophets of the Old Testament] having obtained a good testimony through faith did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us." Hebrews 11:39-40. By faith, the Old Testament saints participate in Christ's resurrection and his kingdom. This is additionally proven in the Transfiguration (Mt 17:1, Mk 9:2, Lk 9:28) when we see that they remain alive in Christ by their appearance to the apostles on the mount. In John 11:25-26, Christ himself says that "Whoever lives and believes in [Him] will never die." As if we needed more proof of the communion of the saints, we also have references to "The spirits of just men made perfect" and "The great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12--you know what? Just read Hebrews as a refresher on all things Saints. I find that helps. Now on this point I know the Orthodox and the Lutherans agree, for we say it in our creeds. (The Bible says it, therefore it is true.) So here's where we come to the circular way of thinking, where we take what is said and use our deductive reasoning. If Paul says, "pray for me" to others, then we know that it is okay to ask others to pray for us. Presumably we would ask those of the faith to pray for us. What better members of the faith do we have than the saints? They are held up as examples of faith, so who better to pray? "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." (James 5:16) And since we believe in the communion of saints, the great cloud of witnesses--since we believe that those who believe and live in Christ will never die, does it not stand to reason that we can ask them to pray for us and they will hear our request? And yes, we do have a direct line, we could ask God ourselves, and we should. But doesn't the bible also say, "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). And doesn't Christ heal the paralytic because he sees the faith of his friends? The intercession of the saints, therefore, is not so unbelievable to us.

I realize towards the end there my tone may have gotten a bit condescending. I apologize for this. Sometimes I get into a certain way of writing and I'm so excited to prove my point that I go into "Mic drop" mode. Please respond with your thoughts. I really do want a discussion on this. And thank you for challenging me with this question, because I study so much harder when there's an end goal. I hope this better explains my perspective.

Thanks,

Jacque

P.S. I ran this by two of my favorite members of the Orthodox clergy. Their additional thoughts will follow in another letter, along with (If I achieve the necessary permissions) my response from the Lutheran clergyman.

An Introduction and a Reason

Dear Readers,

You may have stumbled across this page looking for something else. You may have come here because it was recommended to you by me or a friend, or both--contrary to popular belief, I do have friends, and I recommend things. You may have googled "Lutheran" and clicked through a few pages before finally landing on this. Any number of things may have happened. The point is, you're here, so I feel I must put on a show.

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Jacque. I am an actor, a teacher, a restaurant worker, a musician, a part-time philosopher, and a former Lutheran. I am also, for the record, a burger lover, a Russian literature fanatic, an aunt to several nieces and nephews, a stage combat enthusiast, an Orthodox christian, and a strong proponent of the oxford comma. But enough about me. I'm not what you came here for. Well, for some of you I am (Heeeeeyyy family!) but mostly you came because you're intrigued by the name or the concept or some such nonsense. So let's dive into that, shall we?

This blog came about for two reasons: First, when I am angry, frustrated, or just feeling snarky, I tend to write letters. But I also tend to write when I'm puzzling things out. Normally I have a target for my letters and occasionally they get sent. But for the most part they sit on my computer--or in one case in a pile of papers on the floor of my car--and I go back to read them when I want to be amused. In the case of these letters, a few that will begin this blog actually were sent because I truly wanted answers. And I still do. Which is where you come in. I would guess if you're reading this, you're probably Lutheran. If you have any sort of theological background--or even if you just have some well supported arguments, I want to hear from you! Because like Phil Collins sings as the invisible voice that we think may possibly be the inner voice of Tarzan in Tarzan, "I wanna know." The second reason this blog came about is because after a few of these letters, I started sending them to my sisters because we're giant nerds who debate religion and like reading everything about it that we can get our hands on. We're Fentons. We read. *Gasp* I just told you I'm a Fenton. Breathe. It'll be okay. We're none of us evil, and we only bite on Tuesdays, a fact that you don't really have to deal with since we're interacting via computer. But I digress. After a while they started telling me to write a book to help other converts to Orthodoxy from Lutheranism sort out what they believe. See, the Orthodox church has a lot of books about conversion, but they're all either too heavy for the average person to get through or geared to typical protestants or Catholics. Not that there's anything wrong with protestants or Catholics, but I grew up knowing that Lutherans were neither of those things. I would also venture to say that the Anglican church also falls into that unique bracket of Christianity. Either way, it was very difficult to find a book that related to our particular situation, so my sisters have since suggested that I write one. But I have very little material, and I'd like my research to reach outside of books. I learn in the same way I write: Conversationally. And I find that the more I can debate or argue something, the more interested in it I am.

I'm going to give you just a little bit more about me, but only because it further clarifies my final point. My family converted to Orthodoxy when I was fifteen years old. At such an age, I was too young to be thinking of what I actually believed--I was much to focused on the whole figuring out high school thing--and too old to be able to just go along with whatever my parents told me. And while my family attended classes before our chrismation, I was relegated to babysitting duty. This is by no means a judgement on my parents or the church. All I wish to point out is that this is a difficult time to make life decisions. It's no surprise that at seventeen I decided I didn't believe anything anymore. I informed my parents I wasn't going to attend church anymore and they put up no fight at all. The following Sunday I woke up and went to church. Old habits die hard, I suppose. And I kept going and eventually I believed again. I managed to make it all through college without too much hassle despite my major--I kind of became the cute religious mascot of my theatre circle. The mom of the group. The girl who stopped drinking before midnight on Saturdays to make sure she was following the fast for Sunday morning. And that lasted me until about twenty-three. And then something shifted. I became very curious about Orthodoxy again. And not just Orthodoxy. The differences between Orthodoxy and Lutheranism. May I just point out that in the grand scheme of things, if we look at the big picture we aren't all that different? Perhaps this is why I had such a hard time finding books with the answers. So the time has come for me to go looking on my own, one painstaking letter at a time.

Here is my request: I write letters. When I write them, I present what it is that I believe. All I ask is that you respond with what you believe and provide the argument to back it up. I want a debate, a discourse. If you feel like leaving a comment, by all means! If you feel like leaving a long comment and I find it helpful, I'll incorporate it into a post and give my rebuttal or my thanks or what have you. If you feel like simply reading what I write, that is also totally fine. All I ask is that we stay civil and we remember that I'm here to learn. I hope you are too.

Here's to some spectacular theological discussion!

All the best,

Jacque Fenton