Dear Lutheran,
I think one of the main differences between Orthodoxy and Lutheranism is the way of thinking. I've said this before, the Orthodox tend to think in more circular, philosophical patterns, while other forms of Christianity are more linear and analytical, for lack of a better word. This can be tied in to the differences between Eastern and Western thought, however I do not want to exclude the Western Rite Orthodox. The whole of the Orthodox church gravitates towards this way of thinking. This, I think, directly affects the sola scriptura argument. Try and follow my way of thinking here, because there is a very real chance I'll backtrack on myself as I am wont to do. The difference comes with interpretations. Lutherans and many other western religions say, "The Bible says this, therefore it is true." End of sentence. The Orthodox say, "The Bible says this, therefore it is true. The bible also says that, therefore it is true. If we combine both this and that, we come up with another true thing."
*disclaimer* This is a theory of my own, backed by a little bit of The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan KALLISTOS Ware. He provided me with the difference in thought between the East and West, I supplied the rest.
I think one of the main differences between Orthodoxy and Lutheranism is the way of thinking. I've said this before, the Orthodox tend to think in more circular, philosophical patterns, while other forms of Christianity are more linear and analytical, for lack of a better word. This can be tied in to the differences between Eastern and Western thought, however I do not want to exclude the Western Rite Orthodox. The whole of the Orthodox church gravitates towards this way of thinking. This, I think, directly affects the sola scriptura argument. Try and follow my way of thinking here, because there is a very real chance I'll backtrack on myself as I am wont to do. The difference comes with interpretations. Lutherans and many other western religions say, "The Bible says this, therefore it is true." End of sentence. The Orthodox say, "The Bible says this, therefore it is true. The bible also says that, therefore it is true. If we combine both this and that, we come up with another true thing."
*disclaimer* This is a theory of my own, backed by a little bit of The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan KALLISTOS Ware. He provided me with the difference in thought between the East and West, I supplied the rest.
An excellent example of this is actually the intercession of the saints. You say, "Show me in the Bible where someone prays to the saints." I will now provide my counter argument using the formula above.
Paul, numerous times in the bible, asks for others to pray for him. Because you want specific examples, we'll go with Hebrews 13:18-19. "Pray for us; for we are confident that we have a good conscience, in all things desiring to live honorably. But I especially urge you to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner." Here Paul asks for prayer that he may lead an exemplary life. Here we find that it is acceptable to ask for the prayers of others in times of need. Both the Lutherans and the Orthodox agree on this point. (The Bible says this, therefore it is true.) Now we have this, also from Hebrews: "And all these [referencing the prophets of the Old Testament] having obtained a good testimony through faith did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us." Hebrews 11:39-40. By faith, the Old Testament saints participate in Christ's resurrection and his kingdom. This is additionally proven in the Transfiguration (Mt 17:1, Mk 9:2, Lk 9:28) when we see that they remain alive in Christ by their appearance to the apostles on the mount. In John 11:25-26, Christ himself says that "Whoever lives and believes in [Him] will never die." As if we needed more proof of the communion of the saints, we also have references to "The spirits of just men made perfect" and "The great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12--you know what? Just read Hebrews as a refresher on all things Saints. I find that helps. Now on this point I know the Orthodox and the Lutherans agree, for we say it in our creeds. (The Bible says it, therefore it is true.) So here's where we come to the circular way of thinking, where we take what is said and use our deductive reasoning. If Paul says, "pray for me" to others, then we know that it is okay to ask others to pray for us. Presumably we would ask those of the faith to pray for us. What better members of the faith do we have than the saints? They are held up as examples of faith, so who better to pray? "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." (James 5:16) And since we believe in the communion of saints, the great cloud of witnesses--since we believe that those who believe and live in Christ will never die, does it not stand to reason that we can ask them to pray for us and they will hear our request? And yes, we do have a direct line, we could ask God ourselves, and we should. But doesn't the bible also say, "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). And doesn't Christ heal the paralytic because he sees the faith of his friends? The intercession of the saints, therefore, is not so unbelievable to us.
I realize towards the end there my tone may have gotten a bit condescending. I apologize for this. Sometimes I get into a certain way of writing and I'm so excited to prove my point that I go into "Mic drop" mode. Please respond with your thoughts. I really do want a discussion on this. And thank you for challenging me with this question, because I study so much harder when there's an end goal. I hope this better explains my perspective.
Paul, numerous times in the bible, asks for others to pray for him. Because you want specific examples, we'll go with Hebrews 13:18-19. "Pray for us; for we are confident that we have a good conscience, in all things desiring to live honorably. But I especially urge you to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner." Here Paul asks for prayer that he may lead an exemplary life. Here we find that it is acceptable to ask for the prayers of others in times of need. Both the Lutherans and the Orthodox agree on this point. (The Bible says this, therefore it is true.) Now we have this, also from Hebrews: "And all these [referencing the prophets of the Old Testament] having obtained a good testimony through faith did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us." Hebrews 11:39-40. By faith, the Old Testament saints participate in Christ's resurrection and his kingdom. This is additionally proven in the Transfiguration (Mt 17:1, Mk 9:2, Lk 9:28) when we see that they remain alive in Christ by their appearance to the apostles on the mount. In John 11:25-26, Christ himself says that "Whoever lives and believes in [Him] will never die." As if we needed more proof of the communion of the saints, we also have references to "The spirits of just men made perfect" and "The great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12--you know what? Just read Hebrews as a refresher on all things Saints. I find that helps. Now on this point I know the Orthodox and the Lutherans agree, for we say it in our creeds. (The Bible says it, therefore it is true.) So here's where we come to the circular way of thinking, where we take what is said and use our deductive reasoning. If Paul says, "pray for me" to others, then we know that it is okay to ask others to pray for us. Presumably we would ask those of the faith to pray for us. What better members of the faith do we have than the saints? They are held up as examples of faith, so who better to pray? "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." (James 5:16) And since we believe in the communion of saints, the great cloud of witnesses--since we believe that those who believe and live in Christ will never die, does it not stand to reason that we can ask them to pray for us and they will hear our request? And yes, we do have a direct line, we could ask God ourselves, and we should. But doesn't the bible also say, "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). And doesn't Christ heal the paralytic because he sees the faith of his friends? The intercession of the saints, therefore, is not so unbelievable to us.
I realize towards the end there my tone may have gotten a bit condescending. I apologize for this. Sometimes I get into a certain way of writing and I'm so excited to prove my point that I go into "Mic drop" mode. Please respond with your thoughts. I really do want a discussion on this. And thank you for challenging me with this question, because I study so much harder when there's an end goal. I hope this better explains my perspective.
Thanks,
Jacque
P.S. I ran this by two of my favorite members of the Orthodox clergy. Their additional thoughts will follow in another letter, along with (If I achieve the necessary permissions) my response from the Lutheran clergyman.
P.S. I ran this by two of my favorite members of the Orthodox clergy. Their additional thoughts will follow in another letter, along with (If I achieve the necessary permissions) my response from the Lutheran clergyman.
Hi, from a Lutheran perspective, I wanted to point out a few thoughts.
ReplyDeleteYou said to read the book of Hebrews as a refresher on all things Saints. But what about Hebrews as the book which establishes Christ as our High Priest? The High Priest made intercession for the people of Israel atoning for their sins and standing in the most Holy Place, where the very presence of God was. Hebrews 7:25 "Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." I would argue that the book of Hebrews is more about Jesus being our high priest and intercessor rather than the book being about saints.
I would counter your citation of 1 Tim. 2:1-4 by going to 1 Tim 2:5 "...For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." I would argue that 1 Timothy 2:1-5 supports a Lutheran view rather than an Orthodox view of prayer to the saints.
Concerning the healing of the paralytic, it is unclear whether in Mark 2:5 when it said "And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic..." whether the "their" refers to the faith of only the paralytic's friends or the paralytic and his friends.
Also, does not John 16:23-26 advocate for direct prayer to the Father in the name of Jesus?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the Orthodox view of the saints is that you're basically "crowdsourcing" prayer to the cloud of witnesses. I don't mean that in a mean way, but as the best way to describe my understanding of what you're saying.
I think the Lutheran rebuttal to that is, we already have the Holy Spirit interceding for us (Rom 8:26-27), as well as Christ as our High Priest praying for us before the Father, so why go to the saints who are secondary to God Himself? We would also make a distinction between asking our living Christian friends to pray for us and asking our deceased Christian friends to pray for us. I hope this helps contribute to the conversation!
Thank you Jacob, this is exactly the type of response I'm looking for! I'll look into those points and follow up soon!
DeleteJacob, I think that the verse you talk about in Timothy can be taken one way as a stand alone verse, however if it is taken with the surrounding verses in context you will find that it supports intercession.
ReplyDelete"I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles."
I guess it goes along with the two ways of thinking that Jacque pointed out.
Another thing I have thought about in terms of the saints is the fact that we are in communion with them. The Creed speaks of the communion of the saints. How can we be in communion with them if there is no communication? There is no communion if it is only a one way line of communication.
Jacob, I think that the verse you talk about in Timothy can be taken one way as a stand alone verse, however if it is taken with the surrounding verses in context you will find that it supports intercession.
ReplyDelete"I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles."
I guess it goes along with the two ways of thinking that Jacque pointed out.
Another thing I have thought about in terms of the saints is the fact that we are in communion with them. The Creed speaks of the communion of the saints. How can we be in communion with them if there is no communication? There is no communion if it is only a one way line of communication.