Dear Lutheran,
This Sunday is quite an interesting one, at least for you. For this Sunday you will be praying the Athanasian creed. Upon hearing this, I immediately dug out my St. Ambrose prayer book and re-read it, because I was sure I heard wrong. So I did some googling. And aside from some wonderful articles about how people wish they could pray it more often, I didn't find the answer to my question. So I pose it to you, because let's face it, I trust you more than Google.
Allow me to elaborate on the source of my confusion. I was stunned when I was reminded that the LCMS recites the Athanasian creed on Trinity Sunday because my copy of the creed is lacking one simple phrase that Lutherans embrace. As it turns out, the Lutheran version includes: "and the Son" Which is related to the filioque debate. That's not what I want to get into, however. I have some more reading to do before jumping into the filioque debate, and some recent information from my sister who reads more Catholic literature than I do has convinced me that like many other things, we confuse each other with terminology more often than not. What I want to know is quite simple. What does the original document say? It seems to me that St. Athanasius (or whoever wrote it, since it came into use after he died) would want to be very clear about this particular phrase, since it's an issue people were excommunicated over. There has to be paperwork somewhere. And google has too many opinions to tell the truth.
And while we're on the subject, can I express that issues like these frustrate me to no end? We're set up for failure before we begin when we have two almost identical creeds running around, differing in only one sentence. It's like they want us to be more divided or something. End of rant.
Your frustrated and confused friend,
Jacque
This Sunday is quite an interesting one, at least for you. For this Sunday you will be praying the Athanasian creed. Upon hearing this, I immediately dug out my St. Ambrose prayer book and re-read it, because I was sure I heard wrong. So I did some googling. And aside from some wonderful articles about how people wish they could pray it more often, I didn't find the answer to my question. So I pose it to you, because let's face it, I trust you more than Google.
Allow me to elaborate on the source of my confusion. I was stunned when I was reminded that the LCMS recites the Athanasian creed on Trinity Sunday because my copy of the creed is lacking one simple phrase that Lutherans embrace. As it turns out, the Lutheran version includes: "and the Son" Which is related to the filioque debate. That's not what I want to get into, however. I have some more reading to do before jumping into the filioque debate, and some recent information from my sister who reads more Catholic literature than I do has convinced me that like many other things, we confuse each other with terminology more often than not. What I want to know is quite simple. What does the original document say? It seems to me that St. Athanasius (or whoever wrote it, since it came into use after he died) would want to be very clear about this particular phrase, since it's an issue people were excommunicated over. There has to be paperwork somewhere. And google has too many opinions to tell the truth.
And while we're on the subject, can I express that issues like these frustrate me to no end? We're set up for failure before we begin when we have two almost identical creeds running around, differing in only one sentence. It's like they want us to be more divided or something. End of rant.
Your frustrated and confused friend,
Jacque
And just to clarify, by Athanasian creed you mean this, right?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html
What line of the Athanasian creed has the discrepancy?
And by the end comment, do you mean to express frustration over the difference between two different Athanasian creeds, each one with a different sentence?
That is the creed to which I'm referring. The line where the discrepancy is found is line 23:
ReplyDelete"The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding."
My copy of this leaves out "and of the Son."
I'm frustrated by the fact that we pray the same creed with one minor difference--the fact that both exist but are still considered the same creed. The fact that one small phrase change widens the divide, if that makes sense.
That is the creed to which I'm referring. The line where the discrepancy is found is line 23:
ReplyDelete"The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding."
My copy of this leaves out "and of the Son."
I'm frustrated by the fact that we pray the same creed with one minor difference--the fact that both exist but are still considered the same creed. The fact that one small phrase change widens the divide, if that makes sense.
I had a really nice reply, then I clicked back on my browser, so here is revision 2...
ReplyDeleteI looked at my sources and none of the said anything about the Athanasian creed specifically. I would have to look at a more extensive library, but I would assume the filioque was adopted the same time as with the Nicene Creed. That would be in Spain around the 9th century then proliferating throughout the rest of the Western Church.
I don't think I share your frustration because even if the Eastern and Western church had the same words, they wouldn't magically agree on everything else that they had arguments about. For example, the Lutheran and Roman Catholics have the same three Ecumenical Creeds, but they certainly believe different things.
I think that the three Ecumenical Creeds are a good jumping off point to discuss our faith, but there needs to be further explanation. This can be found in a written down form in Church Council proceedings and other such documents in the case of the Roman Catholic Church, and the Lutheran Confessions in the Lutheran Church. Certainly the understanding of other denominations takes place in the setting of a real-life dialogue where two well-informed people are having a discussion, but I'm under no illusions that if two denominations have overlapping creeds that they necessarily agree on everything.
I hope this was an appropriate response based on what you said, let me know if we're talking past each other or if you totally agree with me and you're just saying it in different words.